Curse

Jeydra · May 17, 2011, 11:06 AM // 11:06

This skill leads is imbalanced, proof as follows:

Duncan HM: http://i.imgur.com/usfAK.jpg

There's absolutely no way a team of 8 players not using Shadow Form can kill their way to Duncan and finish him off in 3 minutes, even with consumables backup. I know from experience that killing Duncan with 7 heroes + 1 player, no cons, takes about 25 minutes. This is 8 times slower than using Shadow Form, despite also having 8 times the firepower.

Ooze Pit HM: http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3958/gw047.jpg

Again there's no way a team of 8 players not using Shadow Form can kill their way to the Prismatic Oozes and finish them off in 5 minutes. I know from experience that the fastest H/H times possible with Elementalist primary (no cons) are about 18 minutes, and the fastest H/H times overall are about 15 minutes. Again this is way slower than using Shadow Form, despite having 8 times the firepower.

Kathandrax HM: http://i55.tinypic.com/svpbvq.jpg, http://i53.tinypic.com/2i1c6.jpg

11 minutes Kathandrax HM, done alone, with par times for H/H no cons at about 40 minutes.

I don't intend to talk about the Underworld or Fissure of Woe or Domain of Anguish here. I'll just point out that speeds this fast in other areas of the game are retarded, and Shadow Form is the key skill to such times.

A few more things here.

Why is Shadow Form so fast? - it allows the player to run past mobs. Running past mobs is significantly faster than killing them.

Not everyone can achieve times that fast - not everyone can clear Ooze Pit in 15 minutes H/H either.

PuGs still fail despite being "invulnerable" / SF takes skill to use, hence SF is not overpowered - balance should not be based around bad players, or we'll be forced to argue that interrupts are bad because bad players can never land them. What is important is that these times are achievable. Besides, PuGs still failed with pre-nerf SF, so that isn't overpowered either ... ?

Consumables have a greater effect than SF - perhaps, but I'd challenge anyone who says this to post a screenshot not using SF / Vow of Silence / Obsidian Flesh / related skills but using consumables, to clear these areas solo. Post a screenshot with /age. See what times they get. I doubt they'll ever get to the end.

If you don't like SF don't use it, don't ruin the game for people that do use it - in that case, I suggest ANet introduce the skill BAMPH for players. Whoever doesn't like the skill can simply not use it.

Nerf to SF will kill the economy - SF has been nerfed before, and buffed before. I don't think the economy has ever died, however, even when SF was not viable. Impacted, yes. Died, no.

Nerf to SF will make people cry that they can't buy Obsidian Armour or BDSes or similar anymore - I've yet to see any non-SF users say that they think SF should stay the way it is because without SF, they can't buy Obsidian Armour or BDSes or similar anymore.

What about Obsidian Flesh and Vow of Silence? - maintainable spell immunity is bad, but neither are as pressing as Shadow Form.

Proposed solution: change Shadow Form (PvE) to Shadow Form (PvP).

Matirion Maeronta · May 17, 2011, 11:15 AM // 11:15

/signed on the nerf, not on the method
To make the nerf effective it would require other, similar skills as well.
If you would just nerf SF and leave obs flesh alone, you would see builds based around that in no time at all (I myself have been using a few, some runs are on par with the SF times, others still require some fine tuning). The same would go for alot of the similar skills. The only difference between those skills is that SF is easier to use and maintain with the current meta builds.

X-Bomb · May 17, 2011, 11:20 AM // 11:20

/Signing

Looking at those pics are quite upsetting and a clear indication that its not the way the game is supposed to be played.

I want my warrior to be included in groups. Have to h/h everything at the moment

Good points raised.

wilebill · May 17, 2011, 11:37 AM // 11:37

What way is the game supposed to be played? Getting a consistent answer to that question is the difficulty faced by the devs before they decide on a nerf.

I do not know whether SF needs a nerf or not. Just on general principles I do not like nerfs. Buff other skills or classes instead. On that basis:

/not signed

Spiritz · May 17, 2011, 11:39 AM // 11:39

I can see the usual replies of "if you dont like it dont use it" being said.
Because a small amount of the player base abuses sf doesnt mean everyone does - i have a sin and i also use sf but and its a big but - i dont run dungeons etc with my sin - infact i dont do anything cept a few small farms with sf.
What you should be asking/saying is for anet to rethink the dungeons etc that are abused by sf.They have done this with Uw several times - adding the dying nightmares , changing mindblades about 2x etc.Doing it this way wont spoil things for the ppl who use sf differently - it also saves the problems that if you remove one op skill another will come forth and replace it ( initial sf change sent a lot of players into using obby eles instead untill new builds for sf arose ).
Btw i hate to pee on your bonfire but my wife doesnt use sf at all on her sin and her mains an ele and she doesnt cry about obby armor and myself - ive never yet taken my sin into uw and farmed ectos and if i was to go and farm ectos then id be using a rit ( yes rit not sin ) and farm that way or i just sell consets and get payments for bulk in ectos and im one of the few players in gw over 4 yrs of play who has no obby armor on ANY chr - not every player in gw goes into uw.
Like i said - change the foes builds to counter sf in places of abuse as thats the only way.

gremlin · May 17, 2011, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Putting the developers in an impossible position yet again.
How is the game meant to be played, well five years ago it was meant to be played by teams of people.

Now the game is open to solo as well as team play, the skills have had huge changes to balance pvp.
New skills have been added and nerfed balanced buffed rebalanced to such an extent that all is chaos.
That's what you get by trying to please all the players all the time.

GW has mostly been abandoned because its unworkable all you can do is run around plugging up leaks, far better to spend time remaking gw totally in the form of gw2.

cheape arie · May 17, 2011, 12:06 PM // 12:06

So you basicly want another skill that's almost completly useless, like Stone Sheath, Balthazar's Pendelum, Second Wind , etc. ?

Atleast try to come up with a decent change for skills before suggesting things like this.

Xenomortis · May 17, 2011, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheape arie

So you basicly want another skill that's almost completly useless, like Stone Sheath, Balthazar's Pendelum, Second Wind , etc. ?

This is preferable to the default situation. See Smiter's Boon (PvP).
Although really, the devs simply cannot go ahead with such a change, it would be three years too late.
Regardless, from a more fundamental view, Shadow Form and SCing as it currently is is somewhat horrific for the game.

Gli · May 17, 2011, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Who cares anymore anyway?

Forget about SF. Looking at that Duncan screenshot makes me sick to the stomach because of all the stacked consumable effects. Those damn things turned the game into a joke. But I just swallow the bile and play the game the way I like it, even if I that means I can't play with 99.99% of the player base because I refuse to play with any consumables at all.

The game's never going to be what everyone wants it to be. It's been tailored to the lowest common denominator for a long time and that's never going to change anymore.

Skyy High · May 17, 2011, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Pretty sick times, there.

I personally would like it to be nerfed. I just don't see it happening. There is very little incentive for them to kill it at this point; they'd lose the players who abuse it, possibly for GW2 as well, and the "devout" of the forums are probably, on the whole, interested enough in GW2 that us buying the game is not contingent on them nerfing SF. We are all pretty much aware of the fact that this game is in a holding pattern, and that (hopefully) they'll do better with balance in the next game, but I don't think anyone is under any illusions of that happening in GW1.

old gray dude · May 17, 2011, 12:42 PM // 12:42

another sf whiner now u say it makes u sick that u can do these things but u did them right those are you in the ss arent they? it just seems like the ones who want it nerfed so bad are also they same ones abusing the crap out of it not everyone relies on sf to get them stacks of ectos vs etc i know me an my guildies enjoy figuring out ways to beat things without sf i just dont think at this point in the game it would be like beating a dead horse just get over it i for one dont let what other people do and how they play ruin my game

vitorvdp_68 · May 17, 2011, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Look, it's this thread again.

Edit:
"If you don't like SF don't use it, don't ruin the game for people that do use it - in that case, I suggest ANet introduce the skill BAMPH for players. Whoever doesn't like the skill can simply not use it."

Is this the best argument you can come up with? Nice one.

Bright Star Shine · May 17, 2011, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by old gray dude

another sf whiner now u say it makes u sick that u can do these things but u did them right those are you in the ss arent they? it just seems like the ones who want it nerfed so bad are also they same ones abusing the crap out of it not everyone relies on sf to get them stacks of ectos vs etc i know me an my guildies enjoy figuring out ways to beat things without sf i just dont think at this point in the game it would be like beating a dead horse just get over it i for one dont let what other people do and how they play ruin my game

That's not Jeydra in those screenshots. Jeydra would rather take a baseball bat to his own kneecaps than use SF or let alone cons.

Eisha · May 17, 2011, 12:59 PM // 12:59

They added 7 heros, which made everything easy, it is just as overpowered as SF, they r just making the game easier so people will keep playing till GW2 comes out, so nerf wont happen.

anyhow, if a nerf comes, ohay obby flesh and spell breaker, there will allways be a way to speed clear. if you want to kill all the foes, go ahead, but for those who prefer speed over the farming, let them do so:P

aspi · May 17, 2011, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Agreed but I think way too late. Just hope they wont use invinci skills again in gw2.

Matirion Maeronta · May 17, 2011, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by old gray dude

another sf whiner now u say it makes u sick that u can do these things but u did them right those are you in the ss arent they? it just seems like the ones who want it nerfed so bad are also they same ones abusing the crap out of it not everyone relies on sf to get them stacks of ectos vs etc i know me an my guildies enjoy figuring out ways to beat things without sf i just dont think at this point in the game it would be like beating a dead horse just get over it i for one dont let what other people do and how they play ruin my game

It might not ruin your game, however it should be clear that it IS too powerful in comparison to other skills, these are the main points brought up in this topic.
Stumme has said that it isn't intended to have one skill that is alot more powerful then any other skill, this is the reason asura scan/buh got changed.

In no way is changing SF beating a dead horse when they make things like the derv update, an update that remakes a class after 3 years. As long as there are still skill updates coming, there is no reason to not include an SF nerf/change in it as well.

And one more thing, even if you and a few others don't use SF to get alot of things, saying it's not bad because not everyone does it is exactly the same as saying item duping is not bad because not everyone does it. Even if one is bug abuse and the other is just abusing a skill, it is obviously unintended (SFs effectiveness is unintended, according to Stumme as well). If one person could get 10k ecto per day using a farm and only he could do that, you would complain too. Regardless if it's a single person that uses something, a few people, alot of people or absolutely everyone and regardless as to the reason: unbalanced is unbalanced, advantage is advantage.

KZaske · May 17, 2011, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Forget it, Shadow Form is not gonna get nerfed no matter how loudly everyone complains about it.

HigherMinion · May 17, 2011, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Why did they make Shadow Form easier to maintain, less energy and not reduce your health upon ending? That's a buff. On that note, I really don't see why they intend on nerfing it now.
Completing UW in 7-20 minutes was fun, yes, but it takes the fun out of the area; you see no details when running away all the time. Giving Mindblades Leech Signet and then having them bugged not to use it on Glyphs was just fcking retarded. Fix that glitch and I'm happy.

/signed, if by some miracle anet hear our cries.

@Below; GW2 is ABOUT powercreep. See the clips on the official site... It's all about big booms and massive (but easily defeated) bosses.

Pugs Not Drugs · May 17, 2011, 01:26 PM // 13:26

I still cannot figure out why ANet implemented cons. It goes against the core values the original game was based on, which was sucess in a mission should be dependant on player skill, not how much money or gear they have. And those screen shots are just dissapointing. Shadow form alone caused huge inflation in the economy, so things that were once valuable drops are now merchant food. I am totally in agreement with its nerf, but I think its too late into the game for ANet to do anything and will just hope they don't repeat their mistakes in GW2.

aspi · May 17, 2011, 01:36 PM // 13:36

So the solution would be not nerf SF but prefend the use of consumables in High end HM areas?